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Writer's pictureLynn Bohart

INTERVIEW WITH BARBARA BUTCHER




BIOGRAPHY


Barbara Butcher is an expert in medicolegal death investigation and is currently a consultant in forensic investigation, working with forensic pathologists, educators, television and mystery writers.  She is the former Chief of Staff and Director of the Forensic Sciences Training Program at the NYC Office of Chief Medical Examiner, where she was responsible for Investigations, Disaster Planning, Identifications, Evidence, and Missing Persons. She oversaw the remains recovery effort at the World Trade Center after 9/11 and helped manage the response to the crash of Flight 587 and investigated the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center. Barbara has worked internationally, consulting for the World Health Organization and responding to the 2004 Tsunami in Thailand, the London Underground bombing, and assisted in disaster planning for the Hong Kong and Norwegian governments.


As a medicolegal death investigator at OCME, she investigated more than 5,500 death scenes and 680 homicides. Her book “What the Dead Know," which covers some of her most interesting cases was published in 2023 by Simon and Schuster. In addition, Barbara is featured in the Netflix Docuseries “Homicide New York” produced by Dick Wolf.


LYNN: Barbara, your official title is medicolegal death investigator. Can you explain to our audience what that means?


BARBARA: When people think about coroners and medical examiners, they usually think about an autopsy. An autopsy gives you the cause of death--for instance, a gunshot wound to the head.  But is that death a homicide, suicide, or an accident? 


MLIs do an investigation of the death ‘scene’ to answer the question, what was the manner of death? It’s just not practical for a forensic pathologist to leave a body on a table to run out to a homicide scene to do that. So, we have medicolegal death investigators.  MLIs go to the scene to examine the body in its context, comparing the findings on the decedent to the findings at the scene. We work with the police, though each of us does an independent investigation. We interview witnesses together, we each do scene photos, and we share what we've found on the site. MLIs then write a report and send the photos to the ME, so they can do a fully informed autopsy.


LYNN: Since you worked with the NYPD, what was the toughest thing for you to navigate as a female investigator in a mostly male-dominated world?


BARBARA: Of course, it took a little time for the men in the police department to accept that I knew what I was doing, especially back in 1992 when I started in the business. I worked hard to show them how good I was—detail-oriented, methodical, never skipping steps. I never acted squeamish or delicate over gruesome scenes, and I joked easily with the cops. I would climb any roof top and crawl through any rathole basement to get to a victim. Most of all, I enjoyed sharing my knowledge with them, and they liked it. I pointed out interesting wound characteristics or discussed time of death calculations. In time, they began to share their knowledge with me. We developed a mutual respect, but only after I refused to accept that kind of sexist treatment and did my work like a professional.


LYNN: If you set aside some of the gory visuals and putrid smells that accompanied some of the murder victims, what part of the process did you intellectually enjoy the most and why?


BARBARA: When you investigate how people die, you learn a lot about how people live. I had full access to the secrets of the scene, and it was fascinating. You would be shocked at how people live: rich hoarders surrounded by treasures and trash; drug dealers in the projects with stacks of gold and cash and enormous televisions on the walls; squatters without water, heat or electricity; and of course the cave dwellers beneath Manhattan. I loved it.


I also loved testifying in court; it was like teaching. I told the jury what I knew, how I knew it, and what it meant. I did my little part to get justice for the families and victims, so I felt like I was being of service to the world.


LYNN: What’s the key to getting information from a dead body?


BARBARA: Asking the right questions of the witnesses and family, and letting them talk without interruption.  They are a gold mine of information. The key to the body is looking at every aspect of it, not just stopping when you see the gunshot wound and assuming that’s it. Look everywhere if you want to see everything. I did, and it was fascinating.

 

"Every contact leaves a trace."

--Dr. Edmond Locard


LYNN: I know you couldn’t make assumptions about cases you were assigned to. What’s the single most important thing a trainee in your profession should not assume as they come upon a murder victim?


BARBARA: Although some people feel that if you treat every case like a murder you will never miss a thing, my belief is that you should never assume that what you have is necessarily a murder victim.  Approach each case with an open mind, open eyes, and open ears. Some say, “take your hands off your ears and put them over your mouth,” because less talking leads to more listening. This especially applies if you come upon a scene where there are three people shot in the head. Are they all murder victims, or is one of them a murderer who then committed suicide?  If so, which one is it?


Another important thing is not to make judgments about a decedent’s life. I’ve heard people in the business who referred to “throw-away homicides” or “misdemeanor homicides” when the decedent appears to be a sex worker or drug user. Everyone counts, and all lives mean something, no matter what their station in life.

 

"I didn't invent forensic science and medicine. I just was one of the first people to recognize how interesting it is."

--Patricia Cornwell


BONUS QUESTION

 

LYNN: If you read murder mysteries, what’s the most common mistake mystery authors make?

 

BARBARA: I don’t generally read mysteries, but over the years I have consulted with authors and TV writers on how to make the forensics real. Writers like Patricia Cornwell, Kate White, and a few others are careful to get it right, doing extensive research before putting down a sentence. If Patricia Cornwell is going to write about a death that occurred while scuba diving, she learns to dive and gets certified so that she knows what she’s talking about. She even learned to fly a helicopter for her work.


Kate White interviews cops, physicians, medical examiners, and everyone necessary to make the story truthful. A couple of years ago, I was reading a great thriller, enjoying the hell out of it, when I was suddenly stopped in my tracks by a very wrong scene. The writer described the police responding to a homicide in New York City and had the police officers rifling through drawers for drugs, while the detectives rolled the body around looking for clues without notifying the medical examiner of the death. They didn’t even notify the crime scene unit, so no prints were taken. And of course that became the basis of the story—the red herring.  It was nonsense.


LYNN: Thanks, Barbara. You kind of amaze me in your ability to compartmentalize.


In her book, “What the Dead Know,” Barbara Butcher writes with the kind of New York attitude and bravado you might expect from decades in the field. She describes working on the attack on 9/11, where she and her colleagues initially relied on family members’ descriptions to help distinguish among the 21,900 body parts of the victims. And she describes how just from sheer luck having her arm in a cast, she avoided a booby-trapped suicide.  You can find the book on Amazon here: What The Dead Know


From Law & Order creator Dick Wolf, Wolf Entertainment, and Alfred Street Industries comes a new docuseries that illuminates the stories of notorious murder cases as told by the people who know them best: the detectives and prosecutors who cracked them. You can find "Homicide New York" on Netflix.

 

Barbara's book is posted in my Book Recommendations second, and the second installment of her interview will run in October.

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